Mike Barry explained to me that those rear wing nuts frequently broke because people could never get them tight enough and would try standing on them breaking off the wings. Therefore, the common practice became using a wrench for rear axle nuts and wing nuts on the front only.
Submitted by simonkarl on Sat, 09/01/2018 - 18:15.
Thanks for the info Brian. I don’t plan on standing on them, I just want them more for display purposes on the bike. Trying to re create that nice flyer look.
Lot's of hearsay and he said, she said going around. Love come to this site to read John's write-ups because they are based on real documented facts.
I don't know where Mike Barry and Brian R. get their informations from but if you go straight to the 1936, '37, '40 and '41 CCM dealer catalogues, wingnuts are factory equipment. The CCM "Flyer" Road Model and the CCM "Road Racer" Model both came factory equipped with front and rear wing nuts. Even the 1950 Club Racer models came with front and rear wing nuts.
Obviously, you would not have a wingnut on a Club Racer with the coaster brake hub since that you have a brake arm to deal with.
And the Professional "Flyer" is never advertised with wing nuts, it is advertised with chromium plated regular nuts front and back.
It shows them in the model pictures and they are described in the descriptions in the original dealer catalogues. So hard to dispute that evidence.
Unless both these guys were living in 1936 and bought their bikes from the CCM dealer in 1936 than the fact that Brian's bike didn't have wingnuts in the rear means absolutely nothing! And you would have to be around 80 years old to know what the "common practice" was in 1936!!!
All wingnuts are not created equal. The early ones are good steel. Some later ones are aluminum (like GB). Still others seem to be cast (Huret?). The early steel ones are very strong.
I checked and I do have a lot of old steel wingnuts. However, there are two distinct thread types. I do not have any old Flyer hubs any more, so I can not check for fit. Can you tell me if the threads are the same on the Flyer hubs as some other more common hubs that I might have on hand so that I can check the wingnuts for fit. You can email me at jdwillia@telus.net
bicyclecollector-Max, somehow you misunderstood my two posts. They had nothing to do with what was original equipment or not in 1936. The intent was as follows: 1. To offer a possible explanation for how a track bike starts off with wing nuts in 1936 and ends up with regular nuts by 2018; 2. To provide a tip that an owner may not want to put wing nuts on the rear axle unless it's for show; and 3. To suggest that rear axle wing nuts might be difficult to source if many of them possibly broke over time. Mike Barry has experience with track & road bikes from the 1940s until present. Why not share a tiny tidbit of his accumulated knowledge and learn something?
Brian, your posts were very clear to me but maybe you didn't read mine carefully.
I didn't know simonkarl was restoring his 1938 Flyer to race it professionnally. I had guessed, incorrectly, that he was building it to be a "historical originality" (quoting you) restoration for show. And I am pretty sure he is not planning to use them as TOC stepping pegs.
I was pretty clear on the fact that I do respect very much the knowledge of Mike Barry (when it comes directly from him). He knows more than anyone about Canadian racing.
I don't think you can compare a 1936 race bicycle to a 2018 race bicyle ....c'mon ....lol. Quick wheel removal nuts still exist on high end racing bicycles Brian. They are just not called wingnuts ..... things have evolved Brian. It's now a lever, and I am pretty sure racers are smart enough not to use them as stepping pegs.
FYI just check the $12000 Colnago Concept race bike. It does have a little thing on each wheel to quickly remove both wheels. It's a lever, the "evolution" of the "wingnut".
The wingnuts must not of been so bad since that from the available documentation I had (1936, 1937, 1940 and 1941, 1950) CCM decided that the 1936, '37, '40, '41, '50 models stated above would have wingnuts. If it was a complete failure to have wingnuts on both front and back wheels than I am sure CCM would of put just regular nuts.
I will not talk about 1938, '39, and '42 to '49 since that I don't have those catalogue at home.
Not arguing with you here Brian. Just stating accurate facts. Not hearsay.
Even during the inter-war period, track bicycles did not use wing nuts. If you study the old photos, you will see that they used standard hex nuts. Wing nuts orignated on road bicycles to expedite wheels changes in the event of a flat tyre. Most track events are so short that a flat tyre would put you out of contention. The major exception is a six day race but even competitors in these evernts did not use wing nuts. In the event of a flat there was a spare bicycle or team mate to take over or a mechanic with the approriate wrench to make the wheel change.
During the inter-war period fixed gears were standard practice in North America for relatively flat races, so superficially they do resemble track bicycles. In addition to expediting flat tyre changes, wing nuts offered the option of a flip-flop hub with a lower geared freewheel on one side, if there were steep hills on the course. Upon reachining the hiill, the competitor would remove and "flip" the wheel, with the lower geared freewheel making climbing easier and the freewheel making for a faster and safer decent. Of course, the cyclist had judge the grade and course to determine is the time lost in the "flips" would be offest by gains in climbing and descending.
In 1933 Tullio Campapgnolo evented the cam-action quick release lever which was faster and more secure than wing nuts. However, his invention was used primaily in Europe and did not catch on in North Americasn until the post WWII era and CCM appears to have been even more delinquent. I've never seen a quick release on a CCM prior to the 1972 Citation and Tour du Cnada. Even then, they were so new to CCM personnel that the literature shows them used improperly.
So, if you see inter-war literature showing wings-nuts, the bicycle was intended (or at least configured) as a road bicycle.
The majority of Flyers sold were ridden on the road. However, Flyer hubs were not flip-flop. Somewhere I have a 1930's CCM racing bike catalogue and, if I can find it, I will see if it lists any wing nuts. I also have a very good photograph of a 1930's Edmonton road racing team that is equipped with Flyers. I will see if I can tell if any of the bikes have wing nuts. The steel wing nuts I have are old (maybe 1930's) and they came from an old Edmonton Cycle Shop. In England, Raleigh was selling their Ace model intended for road use with special wing nuts in the 1930's.
Thanks again T-Mar for a well thought out and well researched answer.
I found my picture from July 1937 showing the Northern Alberta Bicycle Association Winnipeg-Kenora racing team. There are 6 riders in a row holding their CCM Flyers. The wheels all have Dunlop 27" rims with racing tires (not tubulars). Each bike is fitting with a "Philite" centre pull brake. I can clearly see wing nuts on both front and rear wheels on the Flyer being held by the rider at the end of the line up of riders.
I just found another picture of a 1936 Flyer that I bought from the original owner about 20 years ago. It ended up at the National Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa. This Flyer is also fitted with Dunlop 27" rims and tires, again with the "Philite" centre pull brake on the rear. The rear wheel clearly has wing nuts. Rather surprisingly, the front wheel does not.
The Flyer underwent an evolution in 1936. This was the first year that it was spec'd with wing nuts and wired-on Endrick style rims and tyres, as standard equipment. The literature also specifically designates it as a "road" model, though track rims and tyres were an option, along with a hand lever operated caliper brake (presumably a Phillips/Philco Central Pull). Previously, the Flyer had been a dual purpose road and track model. It's worth noting that that the dual purpose version disappeared around the same time that the Custom Built Professional Racer was introduced.
While CCM offered wing nuts at least as early as 1933 on the Road Racer, they were slow to adopt European innovations. Wing nuts can be seen as early as Garrigou's 1911 Tour de France winning Alcyon bicycle and they appear to be widespread among European racers in the early 1920s.
Tom, I am with you 100% on your comment. Changing a tire in a short professional race would be useless as you would be out of contention anyway. It's probably for the reasons you mentioned, that CCM didn't equip "professional" Flyers with wing nuts out of the factory (as shown in the catalogues).
John, thanks for the info. I would love to see your pictures if you find a way to upload them or email them.
I am just relaying the info that I am seeing in the CCM catalogues that I own. The other years, I cannot comment on since that I don't have the info handy.
Not trying to start a big "to wing or not to wing" dilemma!!! I am sure all riders had their pros and cons on anything CCM did, and most probably customized their ride to their preferences.
But Karl, if you are restoring a 1938 road-built Flyer and that you wanted the restoration to be "per catalogue", then, you would be correct by putting front and rear wingnuts IMO. But if you are building a professional Flyer, then, you would probablynot have wingnuts on the bicycle. BTW, can't wait to see the finished bike!
GTFlyte (Greg), thanks for showing a picture of your pair of 3/8" nuts.
Submitted by simonkarl on Mon, 09/03/2018 - 15:39.
Yes my Bike is a road flyer and I’m trying to make it to catalogue spec. My 1939 Cataloge shows front and rear wing nuts. I’m always amazed with the vast amount of knowledge that always comes through this site. As a younger guy I really enjoy/appreciate the learning that I get when trying to figure out my various ccms.
Max, here are some "facts" that back up what you referred to as "hearsay" in my earlier posts, from top to bottom: the front axle with wing nuts from my 1936 Flyer; the busted wing nuts that originally came on the rear axle of my 1936 Flyer; and the rear axle with replacement hex nuts put on by a previous owner of my 1936 Flyer.
If anyone has any or knows someone who is looking to get ride of some, you can email me Karl_simon@hotmail.com
Mike Barry explained to me that those rear wing nuts frequently broke because people could never get them tight enough and would try standing on them breaking off the wings. Therefore, the common practice became using a wrench for rear axle nuts and wing nuts on the front only.
Thanks for the info Brian. I don’t plan on standing on them, I just want them more for display purposes on the bike. Trying to re create that nice flyer look.
Rear ones might be difficult to find though. My '36 came with wing nuts on the front and regular nuts on the rear.
I’m happy with whatever I can get.
I probably have them (maybe even NOS). I will look tomorrow.
John Williamson
Thanks John it’s much appreciated.
Lot's of hearsay and he said, she said going around. Love come to this site to read John's write-ups because they are based on real documented facts.
I don't know where Mike Barry and Brian R. get their informations from but if you go straight to the 1936, '37, '40 and '41 CCM dealer catalogues, wingnuts are factory equipment. The CCM "Flyer" Road Model and the CCM "Road Racer" Model both came factory equipped with front and rear wing nuts. Even the 1950 Club Racer models came with front and rear wing nuts.
Obviously, you would not have a wingnut on a Club Racer with the coaster brake hub since that you have a brake arm to deal with.
And the Professional "Flyer" is never advertised with wing nuts, it is advertised with chromium plated regular nuts front and back.
It shows them in the model pictures and they are described in the descriptions in the original dealer catalogues. So hard to dispute that evidence.
Unless both these guys were living in 1936 and bought their bikes from the CCM dealer in 1936 than the fact that Brian's bike didn't have wingnuts in the rear means absolutely nothing! And you would have to be around 80 years old to know what the "common practice" was in 1936!!!
P.S. I do have a lot of respect for Mike Barry, his opinions, the facts he knows and the stories he tells. (When it comes directly from him).
He has great knowledge and incredible talent.
I am far from an historian or a professional of anything bicycle ..... I just like it when the facts are actually based on evidence.
All wingnuts are not created equal. The early ones are good steel. Some later ones are aluminum (like GB). Still others seem to be cast (Huret?). The early steel ones are very strong.
Jhn Williamson
Hi Simonkarl,
I checked and I do have a lot of old steel wingnuts. However, there are two distinct thread types. I do not have any old Flyer hubs any more, so I can not check for fit. Can you tell me if the threads are the same on the Flyer hubs as some other more common hubs that I might have on hand so that I can check the wingnuts for fit. You can email me at jdwillia@telus.net
John Williamson
bicyclecollector-Max, somehow you misunderstood my two posts. They had nothing to do with what was original equipment or not in 1936. The intent was as follows: 1. To offer a possible explanation for how a track bike starts off with wing nuts in 1936 and ends up with regular nuts by 2018; 2. To provide a tip that an owner may not want to put wing nuts on the rear axle unless it's for show; and 3. To suggest that rear axle wing nuts might be difficult to source if many of them possibly broke over time. Mike Barry has experience with track & road bikes from the 1940s until present. Why not share a tiny tidbit of his accumulated knowledge and learn something?
Brian, your posts were very clear to me but maybe you didn't read mine carefully.
I didn't know simonkarl was restoring his 1938 Flyer to race it professionnally. I had guessed, incorrectly, that he was building it to be a "historical originality" (quoting you) restoration for show. And I am pretty sure he is not planning to use them as TOC stepping pegs.
I was pretty clear on the fact that I do respect very much the knowledge of Mike Barry (when it comes directly from him). He knows more than anyone about Canadian racing.
I don't think you can compare a 1936 race bicycle to a 2018 race bicyle ....c'mon ....lol. Quick wheel removal nuts still exist on high end racing bicycles Brian. They are just not called wingnuts ..... things have evolved Brian. It's now a lever, and I am pretty sure racers are smart enough not to use them as stepping pegs.
FYI just check the $12000 Colnago Concept race bike. It does have a little thing on each wheel to quickly remove both wheels. It's a lever, the "evolution" of the "wingnut".
The wingnuts must not of been so bad since that from the available documentation I had (1936, 1937, 1940 and 1941, 1950) CCM decided that the 1936, '37, '40, '41, '50 models stated above would have wingnuts. If it was a complete failure to have wingnuts on both front and back wheels than I am sure CCM would of put just regular nuts.
I will not talk about 1938, '39, and '42 to '49 since that I don't have those catalogue at home.
Not arguing with you here Brian. Just stating accurate facts. Not hearsay.
Max
Even during the inter-war period, track bicycles did not use wing nuts. If you study the old photos, you will see that they used standard hex nuts. Wing nuts orignated on road bicycles to expedite wheels changes in the event of a flat tyre. Most track events are so short that a flat tyre would put you out of contention. The major exception is a six day race but even competitors in these evernts did not use wing nuts. In the event of a flat there was a spare bicycle or team mate to take over or a mechanic with the approriate wrench to make the wheel change.
During the inter-war period fixed gears were standard practice in North America for relatively flat races, so superficially they do resemble track bicycles. In addition to expediting flat tyre changes, wing nuts offered the option of a flip-flop hub with a lower geared freewheel on one side, if there were steep hills on the course. Upon reachining the hiill, the competitor would remove and "flip" the wheel, with the lower geared freewheel making climbing easier and the freewheel making for a faster and safer decent. Of course, the cyclist had judge the grade and course to determine is the time lost in the "flips" would be offest by gains in climbing and descending.
In 1933 Tullio Campapgnolo evented the cam-action quick release lever which was faster and more secure than wing nuts. However, his invention was used primaily in Europe and did not catch on in North Americasn until the post WWII era and CCM appears to have been even more delinquent. I've never seen a quick release on a CCM prior to the 1972 Citation and Tour du Cnada. Even then, they were so new to CCM personnel that the literature shows them used improperly.
So, if you see inter-war literature showing wings-nuts, the bicycle was intended (or at least configured) as a road bicycle.
The majority of Flyers sold were ridden on the road. However, Flyer hubs were not flip-flop. Somewhere I have a 1930's CCM racing bike catalogue and, if I can find it, I will see if it lists any wing nuts. I also have a very good photograph of a 1930's Edmonton road racing team that is equipped with Flyers. I will see if I can tell if any of the bikes have wing nuts. The steel wing nuts I have are old (maybe 1930's) and they came from an old Edmonton Cycle Shop. In England, Raleigh was selling their Ace model intended for road use with special wing nuts in the 1930's.
Thanks again T-Mar for a well thought out and well researched answer.
John Williamson
I found my picture from July 1937 showing the Northern Alberta Bicycle Association Winnipeg-Kenora racing team. There are 6 riders in a row holding their CCM Flyers. The wheels all have Dunlop 27" rims with racing tires (not tubulars). Each bike is fitting with a "Philite" centre pull brake. I can clearly see wing nuts on both front and rear wheels on the Flyer being held by the rider at the end of the line up of riders.
John Williamson
I just found another picture of a 1936 Flyer that I bought from the original owner about 20 years ago. It ended up at the National Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa. This Flyer is also fitted with Dunlop 27" rims and tires, again with the "Philite" centre pull brake on the rear. The rear wheel clearly has wing nuts. Rather surprisingly, the front wheel does not.
John Williamson
Hi to John and Karl I checked my pair of rear 3/8 wing nuts and they are comparable on a 1937 and a Hercules axle as well as my flyer hub
The Flyer underwent an evolution in 1936. This was the first year that it was spec'd with wing nuts and wired-on Endrick style rims and tyres, as standard equipment. The literature also specifically designates it as a "road" model, though track rims and tyres were an option, along with a hand lever operated caliper brake (presumably a Phillips/Philco Central Pull). Previously, the Flyer had been a dual purpose road and track model. It's worth noting that that the dual purpose version disappeared around the same time that the Custom Built Professional Racer was introduced.
While CCM offered wing nuts at least as early as 1933 on the Road Racer, they were slow to adopt European innovations. Wing nuts can be seen as early as Garrigou's 1911 Tour de France winning Alcyon bicycle and they appear to be widespread among European racers in the early 1920s.
Tom, I am with you 100% on your comment. Changing a tire in a short professional race would be useless as you would be out of contention anyway. It's probably for the reasons you mentioned, that CCM didn't equip "professional" Flyers with wing nuts out of the factory (as shown in the catalogues).
John, thanks for the info. I would love to see your pictures if you find a way to upload them or email them.
I am just relaying the info that I am seeing in the CCM catalogues that I own. The other years, I cannot comment on since that I don't have the info handy.
Not trying to start a big "to wing or not to wing" dilemma!!! I am sure all riders had their pros and cons on anything CCM did, and most probably customized their ride to their preferences.
But Karl, if you are restoring a 1938 road-built Flyer and that you wanted the restoration to be "per catalogue", then, you would be correct by putting front and rear wingnuts IMO. But if you are building a professional Flyer, then, you would probablynot have wingnuts on the bicycle. BTW, can't wait to see the finished bike!
GTFlyte (Greg), thanks for showing a picture of your pair of 3/8" nuts.
Max
Yes my Bike is a road flyer and I’m trying to make it to catalogue spec. My 1939 Cataloge shows front and rear wing nuts. I’m always amazed with the vast amount of knowledge that always comes through this site. As a younger guy I really enjoy/appreciate the learning that I get when trying to figure out my various ccms.
Max, here are some "facts" that back up what you referred to as "hearsay" in my earlier posts, from top to bottom: the front axle with wing nuts from my 1936 Flyer; the busted wing nuts that originally came on the rear axle of my 1936 Flyer; and the rear axle with replacement hex nuts put on by a previous owner of my 1936 Flyer.
then:
Rear ones might be difficult to find though. My '36 came with wing nuts on the front and regular nuts on the rear
now:
the busted wing nuts that originally came on the rear axle of my 1936 Flyer;
confused!
It came to me in 2017 with hex nuts on the axle and original broken wing nuts in a box; very simple, not confusing.