Adding V-code bikes to Chart

Submitted by Brian R. on Sun, 07/19/2015 - 15:41

Recently in the Forum titled CCM Rambler, John retyped the VIM article that was the basis for the serial number dating chart that he created and that is now in regular use. T-Mar pointed out that if the xxxxxA code bikes are from October to December 1949 then the mysterious xVxxxx code bikes that pop up now and then should be from January to September 1949.  I am going to post some photos here to provide further evidence and make the case that the chart be updated to include V-code bikes to the chart for 1949.

The first photos are of a V-code Ladies bike that recently appeared on Kijiji. The serial number is 1V8281.

The second group of photos shows a bike I bought and believe to be an A-code men's bike with the serial number 17315A. The A is not clear but the serial number was stamped on the top of the seat bracket, which is a curved surface. The 5 that preceeds the A is also not stamped properly. By process of elimination, I believe the only code that could fit the stamping that's there is the letter A.

Both bikes are similar in design, with the same badge, same gold head, and I think most telling, the change in the frame design at the seat stays. The CCMs I own from c.1901 to 1947 all have seat stays that are held to the seat tube bracket by a bolt. The two bikes in the photos have the seat stays welded one on each side of the bracket. I conclude therefore, that all this points to V-code bikes being made around the same time period as A-code bikes, probably in that January-September 1949 time period.

So John, what do you say, can we add V-code bikes to your chart?   -Brian R.

8 Comments

Submitted by Brian R. on Sun, 07/19/2015 - 15:49.

The A code bike:

image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg

Submitted by T-Mar on Sun, 07/19/2015 - 18:02.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the problem is that John does not own the charts. The charts that pop up have been submitted by various members and have not necessarily been updated to reflect current understanding based on recent evidence. Anybody could accidently access one of the various, older charts. My understanding is that even the original author cannot modify the charts once posted. The only thing that can be done is to have the entire thread deleted but his must be done the thread originator or the site moderator.

The only way I see to mitigate the risk would be to create an offiical site chart independent of the forums. Perhaps one acessed through a "Serial Numbers" tab on the site header. However, the problem would be gaining consensus on the codes, at least after 1951, which is the limit of the official CCM coverage in the VIM article which John so graciously re-typed in full. There are a lot of different views on the coding after 1951. I had hoped to put much of this to rest when I did an extensive study using approximately 1,000 surviving sales records for the period 1965-1974, but all it did was fuel the fire.

Submitted by Brian R. on Sun, 07/19/2015 - 19:57.

What I am thinking is that if there is a concensus among CCM enthusiasts that T-Mar was on the right track with this and there is no evidence to the contrary, that we (someone) publish an updated list here and possibly on other sites as well with the updated info. To distinguish it from older versions of the list that cannot be deleted it could either be given a title with the word New in it, or the phrase "...as of July 20, 2015". I think the "as of date" approach is wise because it allows for future updates. It would be nice if other members could voice their thoughts either pro or con. Thanks. -Brian R.

Submitted by jdwillia on Sun, 07/19/2015 - 22:18.

I am all for publishing the most accurate list possible. If I had being paying more attention when I made the original list, it would have been correct for 1948 and 1949. Since I extrapolated the 1950's serial numbers from the information, I am not sure that these serial numbers are all correct for the guven years either. I seem to recall giving the serial number list to Mike Barry and Ken Martin in Ontario approximately 15 years ago. It could be that one of them is responsible for spreading the list around and putting it on the web. Surprisingly, the list still looks about the same as when I wrote it out in 2 columns about 15 years ago. I will scan the original pade from VIM with the information on it and post it sometme this week.

John Williamson

Submitted by John on Mon, 07/20/2015 - 20:39.

If someone wants to put together an up-dated serial number chart and date it, we can post it on the site, and, as T-Mar suggests, link it to a tab on the front page.

John

 

Submitted by T-Mar on Tue, 07/21/2015 - 17:41.

I've already got something for my personal use. It wouldn't take too much to update it, to include the lastest findings and some notes for the exceptions and general use. It's an MS Word document with embedded table. What's the best best way to submit this for review by interested members? I don't think we should post it until we have some kind of consensus.

Submitted by Brian R. on Tue, 07/21/2015 - 20:11.

I would appreciate you doing it T-Mar, thanks. If there isn't much feedback from other members here, I say go ahead and post it on this site and then people can submit their comments or arguments. Hopefully people will provide evidence like bike photos or brochure pages if they believe a mistake was made, and it doesn't have to be a hostile process.

Submitted by T-Mar on Fri, 07/24/2015 - 08:48.

It's done, but a preview indicates the chart won't upload and retain it's format. Anybody wanting to review it can provide me with their e-mail address via the site's messaging system (click on 'Collector's Gallery' tab, then click on 'T-Mar', then click on 'Contact'). I'll e-mail the MS WORD file to you. Be forewarned, there are lots of notes associated with the chart, as I wanted to cover all situations and mnimize misinterpretation.  Leave any  feedback in this thread so everybody can discuss it. Once we've got consensus and I've made revisions, John can create a tab for it.